[ensign edwards]

In some strange way that's difficult to explain, I think I liked this better than BSG's end. If you just rate the episodes side by side, they're about equal. Both were mostly good episodes that failed in a few areas. But BSG had such high expectations around it that its flaws were crushingly disappointing. Caprica, on the other hand, was an inconsistent series, and "Apotheosis" was saddled with the unenviable task of trying to wrap everything up in just an hour. Considering that, I think some flaws were inevitable, and the episode ended up being much better than it could have been. The writers did a much better job of working with what they were given with "Apotheosis" than they did with "Daybreak," if that makes any sense.

I don't know. It just feels like BSG's finale was somehow less than the sum of its parts, whereas Caprica's end somehow became more than the sum of its parts.

Anyway, on to the specifics of the episode.

It was, of course, not perfect. The Adama plot continued to be rambling, make little sense, and contribute little to the plot. Willy isn't the future Commander Adama? WTF?

I am now completely convinced that Tamara didn't need to be on the show. Her total absence from the finale proves it.

But I don't want to focus on the bad points. Thankfully, the Adama story was the only major one.

Surprisingly, the episode did provide a reasonably conclusive end to the series. The last ten minutes were a time-jumped "epilogue" of sorts that gave us an idea of what the rest of the series would have been like. It was, by necessity, quite rushed and left a lot unanswered, but I'm glad they did it all the same.

I have somewhat mixed feelings on the future we were shown. A lot of it is open to interpretation, though, so I can choose to interpret it in whatever way I want. The only thing that nettles at me in any significant way is Lacey's future, but maybe I'm just disappointed that we didn't get to actually see her coup.

Clarice's future is the most confusing and intriguing; I look forward to sharing my theories on it with others once more people have seen this.

The first fifty minutes of the episode were intense, exciting, and generally very good. I especially liked Zoe's confrontation with Clarice. It really reminded me why Zoe is such an awesome character.

It wasn't a perfect episode, but considering all the different ways it could have gone wrong, I think they did a pretty good job. It was about as satisfying as a rushed conclusion to a somewhat rambling one season show could possibly be.

Rest in peace, Caprica. You will be missed.

[obsolete toaster]

Glad there was an attempt at a time-jump coda; at least the producers got in that much before the axe fell.

Agreed with Tamara; added nothing to the series that Zoe-A already hadn't contributed.
Now what is this "Willie is NOT the future Commander Adama" business??? Huh???
Please elaborate (if you can; spoilers be damned; I don't care)... inquiring toasters want to know!

Do you think this episode was written with the end on the horizon, or do you think they just slapped a coda in post to wrap it all up, as it were?


PS: If Willie is NOT the future Admiral, it would actually explain a couple of things;

* the age discrepancy; Caprica took place 58 years before Caprica fell; assuming Adama was at least 60 or so (EJO was only in his mid-50s in 2003) at the start of the mini, he should be about 2. Even if he were say 65, then Willie would still be only about 5 or so.
Otherwise, EJO's Adama is pretty spry for a septuagenerian!

* EJO's Adama has blue eyes (the character, not the actor; he wore contacts to look more like his 'son' Jamie Bamber); young Willie's are black.
I've heard of (and seen) people's eyes subtly changing color as they age, but never THAT dramatically.

But even so, what leaves you with the impression that young Willie is not the future admiral? Does Willie die or something?

[ensign edwards]

Quote

Agreed with Tamara; added nothing to the series that Zoe-A already hadn't contributed.
Now what is this "Willie is NOT the future Commander Adama" business??? Huh???
Please elaborate (if you can; spoilers be damned; I don't care)... inquiring toasters want to know!

Willy was shot in the last episode and dead by the beginning of this one. However, the time jump showed Joseph talking to his new son (that he had with his new wife): Bill, named in honor of his fallen brother. Which is bizarre and makes little sense, to say the least.

Quote

Do you think this episode was written with the end on the horizon, or do you think they just slapped a coda in post to wrap it all up, as it were?

I really don't know. The epilogue certainly didn't seem rushed--at least, not rushed in terms of quality. Rushed in terms of it struggling to include a huge amount of information in only ten minutes, true, but that was inevitable.

[obsolete toaster]

So, young Willie is not Admiral Adama... nice twist (and for the reasons I gave in my last post) logical, too.
But it seems like Joseph got to work on a new kid pretty damn fast, didn't he? No moss on this rolling stone!

Naming his new son Bill is pretty frakking creepy , but then again, the Adamas (past and future) are no strangers to dysfunction.

Thanks for the info, EE. I will definitely be buying the US dvds next--er, this month (December already?? Frak me!).

[dsgtdave]

That is intriguing. I'd have to agree that the entire Adama family lost its way very quickly in this series and could have not been there at all.

[obsolete toaster]

dsgtdave, on 01 December 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:

That is intriguing. I'd have to agree that the entire Adama family lost its way very quickly in this series and could have not been there at all.

Especially if young Willie Adama is not even frakking William Adama! They didn't even need him there (as a character) at all. I mean, I don't mind a good bait and switch but it makes the Adama family's contribution even more pointless when you think about it.
It's like having the "Young Indiana Jones" series kill off it's lead, and have Henry Jones Sr adopt another boy whom he renames Henry "Indiana" Jones Jr.
All of young "Indy's" adventures up to that point would be rendered meaningless, as they happened to some other kid, and NOT the hero we have invested emotion in.
Actually, the more I think about it, the less and less I like it....

Oh well, it's not as if there will be any more bad choices for the producers to make....

[ensign edwards]

I really think the Adamas were the show's chief problem. Sam was interesting, but none of the other ones contributed anything significant after the pilot. Everything else about the show was excellent.

[obsolete toaster]

ensign edwards, on 01 December 2010 - 09:11 PM, said:

I really think the Adamas were the show's chief problem. Sam was interesting, but none of the other ones contributed anything significant after the pilot. Everything else about the show was excellent.

Joseph Adama as a character (on paper, anyway) was potentially very interesting. In practice? Much less so.
It seems like he was the "new Lee" for the writers (a potentially good character that the writers just couldn't get a handle on).
Too bad; as Esai Morales was one of the reasons I was initially excited about this show (I loved him as "Bob" in the movie, "La Bamba").

[dsgtdave]

I wonder if they had the last 10 minute "jump forward" on standby in case the series was axed early? Maybe I'll buy 1.5 and put in the last disc and fast forward to the ending and wrap up my investment in Caprica. What a huge 180 from how excited I was on it in 1.0.

[obsolete toaster]

dsgtdave, on 02 December 2010 - 11:20 AM, said:

I wonder if they had the last 10 minute "jump forward" on standby in case the series was axed early? Maybe I'll buy 1.5 and put in the last disc and fast forward to the ending and wrap up my investment in Caprica. What a huge 180 from how excited I was on it in 1.0.

My curiosity is marginal; I'm also more curious as to how it wraps up than what happens to the characters.
Do us a favor, SyFy?
NO MORE FRAKKING PREQUELS, OK??
In fact, they could strangle "Blood & Chrome" in the crib, and I'd be OK with that.
NuBSG told a complete story; it ended; elegantly too, IMO. Let it go, already....

I think when I buy 1.5 I will do the same (skip to the coda and see how it finishes, before I watch any more of it). I'm much more excited about Walking Dead's sixth episode season final this Sunday! Woo hoo!!

[Aphrodite]

Uh....sooo fracking confused. Talk about leaving the fans f*cking lost.

[obsolete toaster]

Aphrodite, on 03 December 2010 - 09:51 AM, said:

Uh....sooo fracking confused. Talk about leaving the fans f*cking lost.

So say we all.
And SyFy really thinks ANOTHER prequel (Blood & Chrome) is the way to go, huh?

[Aphrodite]

This is EXACTLY how I sounded when I read this thread...

[Karajorma]

obsolete toaster, on 01 December 2010 - 12:26 PM, said:

Naming his new son Bill is pretty frakking creepy

Why? Are you forgetting that we're dealing with someone from another planet?

It could very easily be a Tauron tradition to name children after ones who have died. It would definitely fit in with their whole "Return to the soil" philosophy.

[obsolete toaster]

Karajorma, on 04 December 2010 - 03:19 AM, said:

Why? Are you forgetting that we're dealing with someone from another planet?

It could very easily be a Tauron tradition to name children after ones who have died. It would definitely fit in with their whole "Return to the soil" philosophy.

Comforting to know that humans from another star system can be just as creepy as the home-grown variety!

[ensign edwards]

Quote

This is EXACTLY how I sounded when I read this thread...

To be fair, I was deliberately vague on some points. You mind find it a bit less confusing when you see the episode. They still left a great deal unanswered, mind, but they did a much better job of wrapping everything up than BSG did.

[obsolete toaster]

ensign edwards, on 04 December 2010 - 11:27 AM, said:

To be fair, I was deliberately vague on some points. You mind find it a bit less confusing when you see the episode. They still left a great deal unanswered, mind, but they did a much better job of wrapping everything up than BSG did.

As one of 'the other half' of fans that thought the BSG finale was utter perfection, it'll be a tough sell for me, I'm afraid ....

But being a BSG completist, I'll buy the dvds no matter HOW good/bad it is; just gotta have it.

[ensign edwards]

At least they put some effort in. BSG's "answers" were so lazy it just makes my stomach churn. Not as a fan--as a writer. I'd be deeply ashamed of myself if I'd done what they did, and I'm not much of a writer.

[dsgtdave]

I watched the rest of 1.5 straight. This was a deliverable episode. This was good. Yes, I agree with EE. This series goes out, but it goes out with a bang. The last 10 was what I wanted it to be. I am comfortable with that being it. Some stuff doesn't fly (skin job Zoe) but ya, 1.5 delivered in the end. Still not happy that skiffy sold out and will make us buy the last 5.

The last 10, no 20, were good to sum up and work out Caprica. I can see why some would say it was a better ending than BSG. (i dont agree but it was still damn good.

/dsgtdave

[obsolete toaster]

dsgtdave, on 04 December 2010 - 10:48 PM, said:

I watched the rest of 1.5 straight. This was a deliverable episode. This was good. Yes, I agree with EE. This series goes out, but it goes out with a bang. The last 10 was what I wanted it to be. I am comfortable with that being it. Some stuff doesn't fly (skin job Zoe) but ya, 1.5 delivered in the end. Still not happy that skiffy sold out and will make us buy the last 5.

The last 10, no 20, were good to sum up and work out Caprica. I can see why some would say it was a better ending than BSG. (i dont agree but it was still damn good.

/dsgtdave

Well, I (and the rest of BSG/CAP fans who buy dvds) should find out in a few weeks or so.
As for CAP's finale being 'better' than BSGs?
I find that hard to believe personally, since Caprica ends with what sounds more like a 10 minute coda than a proper sendoff (how much real satisfaction can that bring?). Sounds like the producers had this idea on tap in case the show bombed.

And yes, I concede how some may thought BSGs 'hippie' seemingly anti-tech message was a bit too "Lost Horizon", but personally? I thought it ended the only way that it really should have; most of (admittedly not all) of the arcs had closure, and yet there was still enough mystery to chew on as well (hence the debates/speculation we often have here). And the massive time jump at the end made the whole thing come not only full circle, but also made it relevant to US, the viewing audience (it linked BSG's world with ours in what I thought was the epitome of elegance). The gorgeous bit of music from the time jump still haunts my brain sometimes. With four seasons under their belt, the BSG crew felt like a family (albeit a highly dysfunctional one); I haven't felt any of that with the Caprica folks (in fact, one of my problems with that series is the almost complete lack of empathy I feel toward ANY of the characters; I kind of felt for Joseph, but then he turned out to be little more than a common thug).
I felt the BSG crew earned their 'happy-sappy' ending (I don't mind Hollywood-style happy endings if the emotion is honest and well-earned, and not just formulaic).
To me, no empathy = no investment; the Caprica characters never really 'let me in' so to speak.

But, as it often goes here, to each their own.


PS: The fact that I am a big fan of Frank Capra's 1937 "Lost Horizon" (Lost Horizon at imdb )may be part of why I liked BSG's ending so much.