[Zipper]

Official Caprica Episode 1x11 Retribution Comment Thread, Running Comments and opinions about the episode!

Airing tonight on SyFy.

This Tuesday thing is really messing me up.

[Cylon-Knight]

I love this episode!

(That is my future self's post that returned back in time by 3 hours to tell the present me about the future. We are cool that way. But DANG I think I took my Star Trek V DVD back to the future with me... GREAT SCOTT!! I'll confirm this in three hours after seeing the show for "myself." This Tuesday thing is really messing me up too.)

[obsolete toaster]

I think (after watching tonight's episode) that I've nailed my central frustration with this show and the direction it's going; I don't LIKE these people! I don't relate to them.
Yes, the BSG folks were flawed (very much so at times), but there were 'moral anchors' of the show that you could invest in and believe in (Adama, Roslin, Helo and Athena for example). I don't have emotional investment with the people of Caprica; I can't relate to religious zealot terrorists (as a non-religious person, I find it all pretty pointless; are you really willing to DIE or KILL just so people share your tribal god image??? And it's not as if these spoiled, middle-class Caprican terrorist kids come from a third world hellhole or anything; a lot of present-day terrorists are motivated by jealousy/resentment of what their own beliefs/nations don't provide them), I can't relate to businessmen who drive ex-partners to suicide, I can't relate to even my once favorite character Joseph Adama (as he's become little more than a thug clone of his brother; gone is his struggle with his own humanity we saw earlier in the show. I see him sliding further and further away from the man who's supposed to be such a strong advocate of civil liberties; let alone the author of all of those books...).

The only character who is doing the right thing for the right reasons is the cop investigating the STO!
Everyone else on this show can just jump off of a cliff (or a bridge, in Amanda's case) for all I care.

I understand RDM wanting to do an edgy, hard-bitten show in the mold of BSG (and it's famous moral ambiguity), but at least with BSG those people were in the struggle for their very LIVES. And they were essentially good people who occasionally did bad things to survive. On Craprica--er, Caprica, there are just bad people who essentially suck. Rotten to the core. Sorry, but even on a show that is about the last, decadent days of the Empire kind of thing, one needs SOMEONE good to relate to, or aspire to be. Otherwise we are watching the flawed, stupid, greedy people we see on 'reality' shows.

I could be wrong, but I think THIS is the real reason Caprica is flailing its arms to survive in the stormy ratings sea... it's characters are just bad people that are unpleasant to share an hour of my life with every week. Again, BSG's heroes were flawed, but as we saw in "Flight of the Phoenix," the Pegasus arc, "Hand of God", "Daybreak part 2" and so many other stories, they were still HEROES. Flawed heroes, to be sure, but heroes nevertheless.

I think Captain Taurus tried to make me understand this once, and I poo-pooed him at the time (my apologies, mon ami!), but he was right.
You just can't waste emotional investment rooting for a$$h@les (look at the dismal box-office performance of "Watchmen," if you don't believe me).

I know there will be many who disagree with me, and that's totally groovy; but this is the reason why I think I just can't stir up any real passion for this show like I did (and most of my friends did) for BSG. The characters keep me at arm's length. Call me simplistic, but I want my heroes; warts and all.
Right now ALL we see is the warts....

[ColonialMarine]

I agree with OT. I can't find any redeeming qualities in these characters.

Graystone has sold his soul to the devil and engages in blackmailing, to the point of driving one man to commit suicide.

The Adama brothers are mobsters. In BSG, Joseph Adama was referred to in glowing terms as a Litigator. Now he's suddenly a thug.

Clarice is a...well, we all know what Clarice is.

Lacy is a terrorist, as are all the Monotheists.

Etc, etc....

p.s.-the Caprica Police Detective needs a new umbrella.

[dsgtdave]

The problem I am having with it is that they are taking too long to tell the story. It isn't so much the characters but how much time they seem to devot to characters, take away from characters and then suddenly jump back into with characters. The direction is all over the place.

They need to settle down and get focused on where this is all going.

I hate to admit it but I disengaged most of the episode (until Amanda seemingly snapped out of it). I actually caught myself thinking about Enterprise So yeah, there is something to what you said OT, but I still like the show

[ensign edwards]

There were a lot of good moments in this episode, but for some reason, it didn't really seem to come together properly. It ended up being less than the sum of its parts. Which is not to say that it sucked, but it's not going down as a high point of the series.

Good points:

I still think the Graystones are excellent characters. I'm enjoying Daniel's slow descent into darkness. I also continue to enjoy Amanda a lot. Those that are looking for someone to like should pay more attention to her, methinks. Suicide attempt notwithstanding, she's showing a great deal of will and an ability to rise above her hardships that is an excellent contrast to her husband's corruption.

I also liked how ruthless Clarice was. As a side note, anyone else think Barnabas isn't dead?

Bad points:

Why the frack is Lacey still with Barnabas? I thought she only joined up with him to help Zoe.

Speaking of which, I question the wisdom of leaving the show's main character out of two episodes in a row (not counting one short scene). Zoe is the heart of the show; it needs her to work.

I also continue to question whether including the Adamas in this series was necessary. They don't seem to be contributing much to the overall plot.

[dsgtdave]

Caprica - Retribution
- 0.840 million viewers
- 0.5/1 HH
- 0.3/1 A18-49

/rant

[Cylon-Knight]

But you are not suppose to like the characters in Caprica... that's the point! Society is in the toilet, hence the rise and fall of humanity... Caprica is all about the fall. Everyone, everywhere is just thinking "me."

I can't judge the show now... I won't. It is what it is.

If you want to only focus on ratings then what about every other Sci-Fi series? They must be equally "as bad." What about Firefly, TOS BSG, TOS Star Trek, and it's spin offs that all but ST:NG were "so-so" and so many more Sci Fi shows I can't think off the top of my head.

I think the executioner’s axe shouldn't be talked about when you are not even done with season one. That's crazy. Why even bother making any series if it only gets 3 episodes to redefine all things entertainment – or it’s no good?

/big-ol'-rant

[Cylon-Knight]

P.S. My future self didn't tell me of this Post-Show Drama... he's a punk!

[obsolete toaster]

Even a show where society is in the crapper needs an anchor; someone relatable to invest feeling in. Again, look at BSG; it was about the end of this very society, and there were still good men and women there to root for. Yes, they were (very) flawed, but they still did heroic things for each other (often they were petty and shortsighted; but they were real people). They had chances to shine amidst the grime. This show NEEDS that type of person so badly. We've got a bunch of rotten to the core men (the Adama boys--no, thugs, Daniel and Barnabas) and some really messed up women (Lacey, Clarice and Amanda). Who is there to care about? All of these characters could be erased with the click of a mouse and I would feel NOTHING.

And yes, I agree with EE on some of his points; the show desperately needs more Zoe (she was the only 'good' character I could relate to; and she was NOT a terrorist. If you remember the pilot, she freaked out when she discovered her BF's bomb vest). Two episodes in a row where she is almost totally MIA (save for cameos) is nonsense. Her 'being' is the heart and soul of the show. It is the show's reason for being. If I want a good mob story? I'll watch Godfather or Goodfellas. If I want more unsympathetic terrorists? I'll turn on the news. I want a story about the birth of an artificial intelligence that eventually gives rise to a race of cybernetic sentient soldiers who discover they have a soul. THAT'S the only reason I'm even watching this gods' damned show. Seriously.
And as EE said, what the frak IS Lacey still doing with Barnabas (another character whom I couldn't give two rat fraks for, by the way; dead or alive, who gives a s**t?)?

Even at the end of the world, there will still be those who act heroically; not EVERYONE has to be a total a$$-hat.


Edit: The really frustrating part is KNOWING that the writers (esp Moore and Espensen) are capable of so much better than this. Although on his podcasts RDM comes off as a bit drunk on the sweet smell of his own s**t, if you ask me. He may be a bit too in love with every move he makes these days to be an objective critic of it.

[Cylon-Knight]

Yeah, you don't invest in the Characters like CLASSIC BSG. That's right... or CLASSIC Knight Rider... Glen Larson got it right. SyFy is trying, maybe the producers just can't tell a good story anymore....

[Cylon-Knight]

... because stories are about characters not the end "goal" (Cylons/the fall).

[obsolete toaster]

Cylon-Knight, on 13 October 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

... because stories are about characters not the end "goal" (Cylons/the fall).

Without the characters to invest in? You have just the cold mechanics of plot. And without that critical element of empathy with those characters? The best stories ever written are worthless.

Actually, I do give Glen Larson kudos on the original BSG; I enjoyed the troika of Apollo, Boomer and Starbuck right out of the gate. They were fun characters. And the grandfatherly Adama was the perfect patriarch for that show. Yes, the show took many missteps, but the characters in that show (while a bit larger-than-life at times) were people I wanted to see again the following week. Now, admittedly none of them would fit in BSG's new incarnation, but for their time? They were great!

I'm really finding Caprica to be more of an endurance test at this point. It's like being at a high-school reunion and everyone you liked and got along with couldn't make it, so you find yourself stuck at a dinner table with the brain-damaged stoner kids, and the people who used to try to to beat you up and take your lunch money.

[dsgtdave]

ensign edwards, on 13 October 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

I still think the Graystones are excellent characters. I'm enjoying Daniel's slow descent into darkness. I also continue to enjoy Amanda a lot. Those that are looking for someone to like should pay more attention to her, methinks. Suicide attempt notwithstanding, she's showing a great deal of will and an ability to rise above her hardships that is an excellent contrast to her husband's corruption.

[ensign edwards]

I don't see what's unlikable about Amanda. So she tried to kill herself. I'd have probably done the same in her boots. And since then, she's been clawing her way back from the brink. She's ready to help bring down the monsters who killed her daughter. She's cast aside her husband as he spirals deeper into immorality. What's there to dislike?

[obsolete toaster]

ensign edwards, on 14 October 2010 - 02:54 PM, said:

I don't see what's unlikable about Amanda. So she tried to kill herself. I'd have probably done the same in her boots. And since then, she's been clawing her way back from the brink. She's ready to help bring down the monsters who killed her daughter. She's cast aside her husband as he spirals deeper into immorality. What's there to dislike?

Not to defend her husband's actions, but a supportive wife would try to help him with the demons that drove him to act so immorally (namely; the pursuit of their dead daughter's 'recreation'). I still think Amanda is weak-willed. Her daughter was much stronger than her (and we're seeing less of her, ironically; or at least her intriguing avatar).

But Daniel (without Amanda or Zoe's stabilizing influences) is drifting into such a dark place, that I can't relate to him either.

I'm sorry, but at this point, I don't even LIKE these people, let alone look forward to spending an hour of my time a week with them. The only character I found any common ground or anything with was Joseph Adama, and now he's turned into Michael Corleone. Without a conscience, he is no more likable than his thug brother (who also seems to be shedding IQ points lately too; he's quickly lapsing into a 1940's caricature of a NY/Chicago style gangster). If you're show is to be character-driven and not spectacle-driven? Then give us characters who are worthy of our time and emotional investment, and not lazy cartoons of better characters I've seen elsewhere.
This show needs to get it together quickly, although I really feel (and the ratings seem to back me up) that it may be too late...

[dsgtdave]

The ratings may be an indication of the lights dimming but after thinking about it some more a little slack should be cut in that department thanks to the broadcast programming it is up against and the ridiculous 3 week notice they gave everyone when they switched up the scheduling. That was a dumb move.

[obsolete toaster]

dsgtdave, on 15 October 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

The ratings may be an indication of the lights dimming but after thinking about it some more a little slack should be cut in that department thanks to the broadcast programming it is up against and the ridiculous 3 week notice they gave everyone when they switched up the scheduling. That was a dumb move.

The show itself is not helping any, either. They can blame scheduling, the opposition, the relative distance of the moon in it's orbit, whatever; simple fact is, the show is just not living up to the promise. Yes, the scheduling is hurting, but in fairness, IMO the show is hurting itself.

At this point, it's almost like watching a weekly showing of "Attack of the Clones." And for clarification, I thought AOTC was the worst live-action Star Wars next to the 1978 Holiday Special. Hope that clears any ambiguity regarding how I feel about the show at this point.

I don't think it's unsalvageable, but at this point, it would need one helluva good facelift! But I do believe it's way too late for a ratings turnaround. In the 1970s, when shows were allowed to slowly build an audience I'd say sure it could hang in there for awhile. But today, where everything in entertainment is so damn immediate and nothing has room to grow, the weeds are plucked long before they ruin the landscape. A lot of flowers are killed this way too, unfortunately.
This premature culling in entertainment is mostly a bad thing, but occasionally, it qualifies as euthanasia as well.

[dsgtdave]

I reluctantly agree with you on a couple points. The ratings won't recover given the time slot it is competing in and the pace of the show is painfully slow and all over the place.

However, I do enjoy the characters and just wish they would pick a couple and go with it. Specifically, the U-87/Zoe! I have to agree with EE that the Adamas are not bringing much to the table right now. Amanda is wonderful but it has taken 11 episodes to get her to where she is at. And don't get me started on how Clarice has turned out.

Again, I say enjoy while we can and if we can.

[Karajorma]

obsolete toaster, on 14 October 2010 - 11:28 PM, said:

Not to defend her husband's actions, but a supportive wife would try to help him with the demons that drove him to act so immorally (namely; the pursuit of their dead daughter's 'recreation'). I still think Amanda is weak-willed. Her daughter was much stronger than her (and we're seeing less of her, ironically; or at least her intriguing avatar).

Except she doesn't know that's why he did it.

All Amanda knows is that her husband took up with criminals to steal a chip and people died in the process. When she asked him about it he didn't say anything to her about why he did it. Is it any wonder she says she doesn't know who he is now?