[Nick R.]

Cylon-Knight, on 16 February 2010 - 07:48 PM, said:

That is a bit presumptuous. How do humans know that no other creatures (ever) have had - or not had conversations? I don't know either, I can't claim to know the facts either way. That’s being way to general and putting too much into what knowledge humans have. And a pure scientific method will not work either, that can’t even prove I exist.


Doctor, my Anthropogy hurts when I move my arm like this.

Not really no. I don't see any other high level tool users around here with the possible exceptions of a few politians...


Cutle fish, squids, and octopi might (low probability) carry on conversations. Not too sure about wolves, but then I haven't seen them design an F-35...

[obsolete toaster]

Nick R., on 17 February 2010 - 03:32 AM, said:

Not really no. I don't see any other high level tool users around here with the possible exceptions of a few politians...


Cutle fish, squids, and octopi might (low probability) carry on conversations. Not too sure about wolves, but then I haven't seen them design an F-35...

Apes (specifically chimpanzees in the wild) have been known to use crude tools (i.e, branches, rocks to crack things, etc). All without an opposable thumb! It's that one little biological 'gift' that makes tool use so much easier for us as opposed to all other creatures.
And I agree with CK on his point; intelligence (hell, even existence) is very difficult to quantify by language, tool making or any other measure. We all use cell phones; could any of us manufacture one from scratch? For me, that'd be a big HELL NO (others on this site may be more evolved than I).

"Ape shall not kill ape!"
--Planet of the Apes (actually apes DO kill apes; but more on that later...).

[Cylon-Knight]

Nick R., on 17 February 2010 - 03:32 AM, said:

Cutle fish, squids, and octopi might (low probability) carry on conversations. Not too sure about wolves, but then I haven't seen them design an F-35...

Why would an Eagle, squid, wolf, etc. need an F-35 - to bother making one? I don't need an F-35 either. The lack of humanity's ability to have quality conversations caused F-35s to exist.
I would think we should try to look at what other animals can do - like starfish. Wouldn't the ability to re-grow a missing limb be much better than an F-35? "Superior life form" is a point of view. I bet my cat thinks it is superior to my new puppy... when in reality they are both ANIMALS! lol

[obsolete toaster]

Cylon-Knight, on 17 February 2010 - 07:38 PM, said:

Why would an Eagle, squid, wolf, etc. need an F-35 - to bother making one? I don't need an F-35 either. The lack of humanity's ability to have quality conversations caused F-35s to exist.
I would think we should try to look at what other animals can do - like starfish. Wouldn't the ability to re-grow a missing limb be much better than an F-35? "Superior life form" is a point of view. I bet my cat thinks it is superior to my new puppy... when in reality they are both ANIMALS! lol

Oh my, you speak the wisdom of the Lords, CK!

Very much agree that most beings are more evolved to their habitats than we are. Humans adapt to their environment through the use of tools (thanks to our bigger brains and opposable thumbs); animals adapt through biology (through color change, through growth of pelts, use of song for migration and mating, etc).
Besides, I know even my stupid fish (and they are not bright, let me tell you) are perfectly suited (mentally and physically) for their rather limited range of life (if they could have abstract thought, they'd probably go insane swimming around in a 30-odd gallon tank all day; one of the reasons we are getting them a bigger tank this spring!). So yes, I find the 'superior life' argument to be very subjective.

And I still find it laughable when people ask whether animals have emotions or not; obviously they've never owned a pet!
I had many animals as a kid, and believe me; they all had emotions! Emotions are primal; like breathing and mobility, IMO. It's not a matter of 'anthropomorphizing' them. All you have to do is look and listen to them! They convey tons of emotion, all of the time!

[krislynn]

Hmmmm, I'll take a stab in the dark at this question.

USB port being used on Caprica. Well...ummmmmm, it was in the script? lol

[obsolete toaster]

krislynn, on 17 February 2010 - 11:05 PM, said:

Hmmmm, I'll take a stab in the dark at this question.

USB port being used on Caprica. Well...ummmmmm, it was in the script? lol

In the pilot, Daniel 'steals' Zoe-A's program from the V-club and transfers her to the metacognitive processor via a common-looking USB ported device.
Believe it or not, that's where this whole wild thread actually began from (and, as usual, we turn it into a philosophical bloodbath! )!

[sean]

It's so easy a caveman can do it.....

[obsolete toaster]

sean, on 18 February 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

It's so easy a caveman can do it.....

What??? HEY!! NOT... COOL!!!





PS: Jeez, he kind of looks like me, no?

[Nick R.]

obsolete toaster, on 17 February 2010 - 11:15 PM, said:

In the pilot, Daniel 'steals' Zoe-A's program from the V-club and transfers her to the metacognitive processor via a common-looking USB ported device.
Believe it or not, that's where this whole wild thread actually began from (and, as usual, we turn it into a philosophical bloodbath! )!

I am not too sure of that. Stealing that is. After Zoe was killed by her boyfriend, all her property revent to her nearest relatives - at least under American law it would have. We have no idea what Caprican law is on that subject. At least not yet.

It may even be the Zoe even alive may have been her father's property... This is the traditional role of children in most societies. Very few accord them any legal recognition, historically speaking. Just look at Shakespear's plays.

[obsolete toaster]

Nick R., on 19 February 2010 - 07:45 AM, said:

I am not too sure of that. Stealing that is. After Zoe was killed by her boyfriend, all her property revent to her nearest relatives - at least under American law it would have. We have no idea what Caprican law is on that subject. At least not yet.

It may even be the Zoe even alive may have been her father's property... This is the traditional role of children in most societies. Very few accord them any legal recognition, historically speaking. Just look at Shakespear's plays.

Taking without permission = theft. Whether it's your dead child's property or a living program. If I even took $5 from my wife's purse, I'd call if theft.
So, it's theft in my book; plain and simple. Maybe not legally (who knows Caprican law), but morally.

[Nick R.]

Well the real the question is about inherritance laws. As far as I know Zoe had no will, so her parents were free to act.

Now the avatar of Zoe, by Zoe the laws may not have kept up with technology. In other words what legal presidents were there for the avatar? What about a human level avatar?


Property doesn't have rights...

[Karajorma]

Nick R., on 14 February 2010 - 07:18 PM, said:

According to Under World by Graham Hancock there is the remains of a city of the the coast of Pakistan/India boarder. This city is in about 150 plus feet of water. The last time it was above water, was around 9600 B. C. when the North American Ice sheet under went severe water release (it melted) this raised the sea level world wide by - you guessed about 150 feet plus in four days or so. (sorry I can't be more exact than this, it has been a long time since read the book)

I wouldn't pay attention to anything Graham Hancock said even if he told me my hair was on fire and I smelled burning.

Seriously though, his books are one long case of denial of science in favour of an overarching claim that there was a master civilisation 12,000 years ago. For instance when confronted with carbon dating evidence that one of the cities he claimed was 12,000 years old was only 2,000 with the settlement being at most 3,500 years old. His response was simply say that the dating was wrong. No reason why it was wrong, simply that it must be because he'd decided that the city was 12,000 years old.

If you're interested there is a very good transcript of a BBC program about his available here.

[Cylon-Knight]

Shazam! Go Karajorma.
SO, the USB is only 2,000 years old - who knew!

I think the use of a "USB" in Caprica is totally fine - really - if he was holding some other futuristic diz-ma-do-mah-thing, and said "I downloaded her avatar to my diz-ma-do-mah-thing" while holding something that looked like a chromed Magic 8 Ball with spikes on it... would that have moved the plot along for the viewers? Something like that would have made Caprica seem less that "real world." The cars have four wheels and they speak English too! A USB is cool

[obsolete toaster]

Cylon-Knight, on 28 February 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:

Shazam! Go Karajorma.
SO, the USB is only 2,000 years old - who knew!

I think the use of a "USB" in Caprica is totally fine - really - if he was holding some other futuristic diz-ma-do-mah-thing, and said "I downloaded her avatar to my diz-ma-do-mah-thing" while holding something that looked like a chromed Magic 8 Ball with spikes on it... would that have moved the plot along for the viewers? Something like that would have made Caprica seem less that "real world." The cars have four wheels and they speak English too! A USB is cool

I'd rather forsake a little bit of futuristic 'oohing and ahing' in order to have a little more of a 'relatable' world (as Caprica has so expertly done); rater than everyone dressed in tin foil, walking their robot dogs with pie plates on their heads. Science fiction is not about future tech; but rather HOW said tech affects people!

A USB is an 'audience shorthand' to quickly explain in images and editing what Daniel is doing in that scene. The fact that we all got it so quickly meant that it worked! I mean, we've already seen colonials with SUVs and cellphones. Come on, who cares if they have USBs or not?

If it were ST-TNG, there'd be a half page of dialogue with Graystone explaining to Lacey about how he is going to "reroute her avatar image by momentarily destabilizing her photonic/synaptic matrix out of the virtual club and upload it into the metacognitive processing control unit!"

[obsolete toaster]

Karajorma, on 28 February 2010 - 03:27 AM, said:

I wouldn't pay attention to anything Graham Hancock said even if he told me my hair was on fire and I smelled burning.

Seriously though, his books are one long case of denial of science in favour of an overarching claim that there was a master civilisation 12,000 years ago. For instance when confronted with carbon dating evidence that one of the cities he claimed was 12,000 years old was only 2,000 with the settlement being at most 3,500 years old. His response was simply say that the dating was wrong. No reason why it was wrong, simply that it must be because he'd decided that the city was 12,000 years old.

If you're interested there is a very good transcript of a BBC program about his available here.

He sounds like that crackpot from the 1970s; Erich von Daniken, who wrote that so-called non-fiction called "Chariots of the Gods" which tried to tie in old cave paintings and markings made on the ground to 'ancient astronauts' from outer space! Did it EVER occur to morons like von Daniken that ancient cultures may have had their own version of 'sci-fi' and the drawings we see today were simply their way of expressing it? Reminds me of "Galaxy Quest" with the naive aliens who think the TV space opera episodes were 'historical documents' of earth's past! Maybe in 1,000 years someone may stumble across a dvd of The Empire Strikes Back and think the AT-AT/speeder battle on Hoth was a reenactment of the Battle of the Bulge!
Oy! It always pains me when people forsake science, rationality and clarity of thought for mysticism, quasi-religious mumbo-jumbo, and outlandish theories that always try to 'skip over' that 'dull, scientific method' stuff.

The universe is a billion piece jigsaw puzzle, and right now we have about 371 pieces. Now, we can either be patient and inquisitive and look for the rest, or we can just guess what the remainder of the puzzle is supposed to look like right now and call it a day!

Of course, I shouldn't complain; my horoscope said to keep a positive frame of mind today!

[Karajorma]

While I greatly dislike von Daniken for the same reason I dislike Hancock, I have to give him some grudging respect as the person who influenced Glenn Larson in many ways when it came to the creation of BSG. The entire start of TOS is in fact a reference to that book.

Doesn't mean the book makes any sense of course.

[obsolete toaster]

Karajorma, on 02 March 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

While I greatly dislike von Daniken for the same reason I dislike Hancock, I have to give him some grudging respect as the person who influenced Glenn Larson in many ways when it came to the creation of BSG. The entire start of TOS is in fact a reference to that book.

Doesn't mean the book makes any sense of course.

"There are those who believe..." that good ideas can come from complete crap, sometimes!
I consider von Daniken to be the fertilizer; BSG was the rose bush that grew out from under it!