[Tinman]

What do you guys think?

Did the TOS Colonials need a dedicated "Attack Bomber" or "Fighter/Bomber" in the Airwings of the Battlestars to be able to bring some real firepower against an enemy target on a higher level than what the Vipers could? From the discriptions I have read (one enclosed below) from wargames and RPG's the Vipers just couldn't get in close enough and then their weapons couldn't inflict the damage need to stop the Cylon Basestars.

Did the Colonials need something along these lines? Something that could carry long range anti-ship missiles and have larger blasters than the standard ones carried on the Viper?

I really like the description on the picture for the PYTHON FIGHTER/BOMBER - (Click on icon below for full sized pic).



PYTHON MK.I TACTICAL FIGHTER/BOMBER
Armament:
2x turreted medium planetcraft scale skirmish range autocannon,
2x medium planetcraft scale skirmish range autocannon,
4x heavy spacecraft scale capital range missiles.
Description: 43 x 38 x 15 feet,
Crew: 2 Pilot & ECM Systems Operator/Rear Gunner

As the Cylon War increased in its intensity and brutality, it became starkly clear to the Colonial High Command that their regular fighter craft were no match for the Basestars operated by Cylons, and that, once a base had been over-run, Starhounds, or Vipers were unable to strike over the longer ranges called for.
The Solution was to produce a heavy fighter-bomber – the PYTHON. Large by virtue of necessity, the Python is heavily armed, hosting four internal missile bays, capable of housing nuclear missiles. Although she only carries two forward firing autocannon, these are more capable variants of those used by the Viper Mk.II or
Starhound and are capable of literally blowing away an enemy fighter with one hit in
the right place. As the Python is not very agile, she carries two smaller autocannon in a remote rear turret, giving her a good tail firing capacity which few enemy ships realised to
begin with.
The Python suffered from low speeds but made up for it by incorporating a very small FTL drive, giving the Python the ability to jump in ahead of a fleet, gaining surprise and range in the process. Unfortunately she could only carry enough fuel for four such jumps and these jumps were very limited in range. Pythons were still retained after the end of the Cylon War, but their recon functions were taken over by Raptors.

A number were updated to Mk.II standard but, by the beginning of the Adar Administration, the last squadron had been converted onto Raptors. Some Pythons were sold off to Planetary Defence Forces. The very last Python MK.I in operational service now stands outside the Caprica Flight School as a testament to the design.

[sean]

nice ship.park it in my basestar for dissection.

[Cylon-Knight]

I've seen those before, I just called em speed bumps. Beware the Basestar!

[Nick R.]

Here is the problem.

The Viper is an intercepter. This means that its primary job is to blunt any attacks on the fleet. In other words, its role is defensive, not offensive.

The way I think of it, is having short legs, that is, only about thirty percent(based off the real world U. S. Air Force fighters)of its mass is fuel. It primary armerment is a set of twin 30 mm turbolaser canon. Not very powerful at all.

Jackill's Asp is a fighter - more weapons choice.

So here is a breakdown on the complament for a typical mission(impling directly that the mission that we see at the start of the movie, is not.)

You begin with a Battlestar's defensive space wing. Which consists of Vipers(standard) plus five two place recon Vipers that are set up to enhance the Battlestar's sensors away from direct observation.

Then add in 75 Asps, plus five four place Asp ECM/ECCM versions to jam/attack the electronics of the Basestars/bases. This the more typical.

But it gets even more probematic. What happens if there is a squadron of Battlestars, or like ships? Then it is very possible that Lightstars may have only Vipers to defend, with the Battlestars on the attack.

But there is still another problem. The Eastern Alliance Destroyer. This ship shows that the Battlestars could hold much larger ships than "normal".

Further more, unmanned ships could be staged out of the launch tubes of a Battlestar - for very heavy hitting. In other words exactly what is carried depends upon the mission.

So here is the list: Battlestars - closest U. S. Midway class (CVB).

Fleetstars - closest U. S. Navy Essex class (CV).

Lighstars - closest U. S. Navy Independence class (CVL).

Escourtstar - closest U. S. Navy various classes (CVE). These are built from various commercial classes.

[Nick R.]

So additional designs arerequired. In other words.

And if you don't like those designations then how about the other ones? Like Gunstar, Protector, Defender, and so on?

Yes this is what I meant when I posted that they didn't their job. They needed at least ten pages of background material, to provide the whys...

[obsolete toaster]

It looks like a Viper that gained some weight over the holidays and then had a bad nose job!

The Mark II is cuter!

But I admire the graphics; nicely rendered.

[Tinman]

Well Nick R. - to start off - your post covers a LOT of turff on what the airwings of different classes of ships might by as well as for certain types of missions. So with that said, I will just comment on the AIRWING of a BATTLESTAR part for this post...

I have to disagree with you on one very important part. The Airwing of a Battlestar or modern day Carrier for that matter is NEVER solely defensive in nature but OFFENSIVE. That is it's main object in life and what is it's main mode of projecting power and presance across distance. The Airwing being balanced also is capable of Defending it's home and any Offensive Airstrikes - but that is not it's primary role - which is POWER PROJECTION.

OK... If we were going by "TOS Canon" it would pretty much shoot both of us down because each Battlestar is rated at only having TWO Squadrons of 75x Vipers each for a TOTAL of 150. (i.e. Blue & Red Squadrons for Glalctica - Silver & Bronze Spar Squadrons for Pegasus for example).

If we were going by Canon - it would be REAL easy to work out a balanced Airwing set-up:
1st Squadron - VIPER MK.II - (FIGHTER/BOMBER) - 75x
2nd Squadron - PYTHON MK.I - (ATTACK) - 75x
SHIP'S FLIGHT - OMEGA SHUTTLES - (TRANSPORT) - 10x
TOTAL - 160+ craft

I was leaning more toward the 20 - 26 craft per Squadron as in TNS BSG, with a standard complement of 4x Squadrons on a Battlestar of the class GALACTICA belongs to. Here is what I have as a breakdown for a "Standard" Battlestar Airwing during the First Cylon War period:

BATTLESTAR AIRWING

1ST SQDN (BLUE) - - (FIGHTER/BOMBER) - - [VIPER MK.II & MK.IIA]
2ND SQDN (RED) - - (FIGHTER/BOMBER) - - [VIPER MK.II & MK.IIA]
3RD SQDN (GREEN) - - (INTERCEPTOR) - - [COBRA MK.III]
4TH SQDN (ORANGE) - - (ATTACK) - - [PYTHON MK.I]
ECM/EW FLIGHT (YELLOW) (6) - - (TAC EW CRAFT) - - [MOD. PYTHON MK.I]
RECON FLIGHT (PURPLE) (6) - - (LONG RANGE TAC RECON CRAFT) - - [STELLAR PROBE MK.I (PROBE VIPER)]
SHUTTLE FLIGHT (14) - - (TRANSPORT) - - [10X OMEGA FLEET SHUTTLES, 4X MINI-SHUTTLES]

NOTES:
IMHO this gives a very well balanced Airwing, BUT - with a a Hades Class Cylon Basestar suposedly being able to launch 300 Raiders the numbers of a Colonial Squadron are going to have to be adjusted - or like was done in TNS BSG, the number of Raiders on a Baseship is going to have to be cut down.
As was stated this would be the "Standard" Airwaing composition for a Battlestar of Galactica's Class. For other types of OPS say a heavy strike on a target one of the Viper or perhaps the Cobra squadron might be switched for an extra Python squadron.

1. The VIPER MK.II is the Standard Colonial fighter. Jack of all trades - Similar to the F/A-18 Hornet - it can do both Fighter & Light Attack missions.
2. The VIPER MK.IIA is a two seat version of the standard Viper Fighter that has the armament removed and can be used for short range Tactical Recon or can be fitted as EW platforms with ECM gear and anti- Dradus missiles to accompy Strike missions. Each squadron is equipted with a pair of the MK.IIA's.
3. The COBRA MK.III is the long range punch and defense for the fleet - not as manuverable as the Viper - it's main weapons are missiles but can fight close range if it has to - combination of the F-14 Tomcat & the MIG-31 FOXHOUND
4. The PYTHON MK.I is the heavy hitter of the Fleet. Capable of carrying long range anti-ship missiles that can launch outside of the defensive circle of a Cylon Basestar and still do real damage to it. Similar to the A-6 Intruder or F-111 Aardvark
5. The EW PYTHON - specially modified version of the PYTHON with extra electronic jamming and ECW warfare gear fitted for both defense of the Fleet and Airstrikes. Capbale of carrying short range anti-Dradus missiles. Similar to a cross between the EA-6B Prowler and the F-4 Phantom "Wild Weisels."
6. The Stellar Probe MK.I (Probe Viper) is used for long range recon out past the range of Dradus or Fighter Patrols. Longer range and faster than any fighters, it is also unarmmed. This is similar to the SR-71 Blackbird.
7. The OMEGA FLEET SHUTTLE is the standard shuttle of the Colonal Fleet. Able to carry a large number of passangers or troops it can also carry a Landrm size armored vehicle. This is similar to the C-130 Hurcules transport plane.
8. The MINI-SHUTTLE is a standard small shuttle capable of carrying 6 passengers plus crew. Used mostly for short range ship to ship transport. This vehicle would be close to the UH-1 Huey helicopter.

<S>!

[Tinman]

BTY... My PYTHON & ASP

PYTHON MK.I EW / ECM FIGHTER
This fighter has the same engine configuration as the Scorpion. The Python is stretched out for a second cockpit seat for the "Wizo" to operate
all the newly installed electronic equipment. The EW/ECM equipment is carried in pods on the wingtips and verticle tail as well as having antennas
placed in specific positions on the wings and fuselage.


ASP MK.IV STRIKE FIGHTER
This 2 man fighter has an "X" configuration set of wings as well as dispensing with the single verticle tail of the Viper for smaller twin tails.
It has a standard armament of 4x Turbo-Lasers which can be augmented with missiles (Mk.22 "Can-Opener" Anti-Ship missiles shown) or free-fall
Solonite weapons on hardpoints under the wings. This model of the Asp is used for Tactical Strikes on enemy ships as well as ground targets
and has a limited capability as a Point Defense Interceptor.

[Cylon-Knight]

OH MY ONE TRUE CYLON GOD, Tinman! WOW Maybe I'll just buy a bus pass
I have to agree with your setup, Fleet Admiral Tinman!!!





(Now, just let that fleet sit "right there" ... the Basestars are ALMOST there - heehee)

[Tinman]

Cylon-Knight, on 13 January 2010 - 01:53 PM, said:

I have to agree with your setup, Fleet Admiral Tinman!!!

FLEET ADMIRAL TINMAN, I like the sound of that. MAKE IT SO!

<S>!

[Cylon-Knight]

Indeed. I looked it up and that is the higest (war time only) rank in the Navy. You go!

[obsolete toaster]

Cylon-Knight, on 13 January 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

Indeed. I looked it up and that is the higest (war time only) rank in the Navy. You go!

Oooh, nice! Admiral on deck!!

As for the offensive defensive thing, you're spot on, TM! I believe in TOS (and in the Navy) they refer to a combat ready flight as a 'strike wing' (which implies offensive posture) and the ship's batteries are it's primary defensive weapons. I LOVE Naval aircraft carriers; my old dad and I (back in 1985) went on a tour of the (now decommissioned) USS Constellation. That was a real thrill! Sat in the navigator's chair, too! The view from the bridge overlooking the flight deck was magnificent.

[Cylon-Knight]

Not quite as magnificent as the deck of the U.S.S. Obsolete Toaster

[obsolete toaster]

Cylon-Knight, on 14 January 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

Not quite as magnificent as the deck of the U.S.S. Obsolete Toaster

You damn right, buddy!

[Tinman]

Been on the USS JFK and the USS LEXINGTON - they are very impressive.

Would love to be on one when they are doing aircraft operations.

<S>!