[Captain Taurus]

Okay, this topic is a leap for me. So I am going to ask a question that has been popping up in all our debates so far as to how the skinjobs operate, how are they made and why are they so hard to identify in a blood test. So ultimate question is define what is human and what isn't! Are the skinjobs human or are they machines? I know I am going to regret this! So here's my opinion to get the ball rolling. Be gentle!


Here's my take on them based on what I know and trying to avoid all the inconsistencies in the show. Makes it a little more difficult to argue this topic but then again if it was really straight forward then there wouldn't be a need to discuss this topic. Let's take you kids back to the late 1980's on a show that was the best sci-fi going. Star Trek: The Next Generation. In a great episode that dealt with a sensitive issue, is Data alive? Picard effectively argues that by definition of life one needs to be sentient, intelligent, and self-aware. Data is alive by all these definitions. They try to argue that Data has no emotions and is not made up of living tissue. But Picard proves that Data does not need that to be considered alive.

So, lets go to the Cylons. Original, classic toasters were by definition - machines! No doubt in my mind. Not sentient, not self-aware, and not intelligent. So something happens to change them. Programing evolves or newer models have changed. Now they are starting to posses certain qualities that makes them not quite entirely inhuman. Machines programmed to kill and adapt. Much like a soldier, these machines are evolving beyond their original programming. How, I don't know, but that is another debate.

Now we have new Cylon Centurians which seem dumber than the originals - so these are by definition machines! Cylon raiders, a step up from the Centurians, capable of adapting and containing a living brain. Human or not. Cyborg! Similar to another classic sci-fi, also from the 80's, Robocop! They are constantly arguing that he is a product and a machine. I said that he is still part human because he feels, he thinks, he has intelligence and he requires food to sustain his human organs. So by definition he is a Cyborg. Not fully human. Like the trailer for Robocop said, "Part Human. Part Machine. All Cop!"

Now we are getting to the skinjobs! This is very confusing for me. They download like a computer, can be boxed like a piece of equipment. Think about that term. Boxed. Not killed. Or put to sleep. But boxed.
So something tells me that they can function for decades without repair or aging. You never see them eat. I don't know too many humans who can function indefinitely without nourishment. Then there is the fact that they each have separate programs to function and learn different things about humanity.
That there are thousands of these things? Are they originally based on a real human who was cloned and integrated with technology? While they say that they have living tissue, why do their spines glow in the dark? My definition of these things is cyborg. An elaborate Cyborg, but none-the-less a Cyborg. Part machine and part human. Okay everyone, the ball is in your court. Take it away!

[airbornewarrior]

i would have to say theyve been cloned from a human, adapted with silicon/blood to help the clone survive while awaiting rebirth, and while we know they are basically the same as humans inside, there must obviousely have some sort of processor/with memory space for the download, probably within the skull because although we know ther have been autopsys on the skinjobs, i dont recall any scene where they taken out the brain. They do eat, remember Baltar got Gina to eat in the Pegasus brig and ive seen Tyrol eating in the mess. So i would say they are a highly sofisticated cyborg with only minimal machine parts, and the most imported thing is, its sci fi so they can do whatever they want.

[maneth]

Let's not forget that the five are so different from the seven that we can't really judge the former by what we know about the latter. It looks like the five age, and while it's possible they download, it may be equally possible that there's only one "alive" at a time.

What is human then, and what isn't? My take on it tends to be that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. I.e. if the skinjobs are so similar to humans that they can't be distinguished by any test, up to and including a full autopsy from ordinary humans, then to all intents and purposes the difference is a moot point. The cylons are certainly murderous and as such should be held accountable for their actions, but even here I wouldn't put the five in the same category as the seven, since we haven't seen the latter take any action against the Colonies, quite the contrary.

[airbornewarrior]

True

[obsolete toaster]

As Edward Olmos has said in print (and what I agree with) regarding the nature of BSG's skin-jobs is this; they are essentially replicants (from the Blade Runner mythos). Biologically grown and engineered but with certain superhuman abilities (as they were engineered from machines, it's logical their biology would have certain mechanical aspects). And as pointed out earlier, they DO eat. In fact, as seen from Leoben's torture in season 1's "Flesh and Bone," they have to. If you've ever seen Blade Runner (and a shame if you haven't; it's frakkin' brilliant), the replicants were engineered, biologically-mimetic beings, down to a cellular level (under electron microscope, you could see their serial/manufacturing #s etched onto their cells). I suspect BSG's skin-jobs (a term coined from Blade Runner, in fact) are much the same. Too bad for humanity, they don't have the replicant's built-in fail-safe device of a 4 yr lifespan! Of course, Cylons are assured virtual immortality through downloading, so....wouldn't help, would it? And good point, Taurus, about how the new generation Centurions seem "dumber" than their older "guardian" counterparts seen in "Razor." I think this is a deliberate move by the skin-job engineers who built them. In Cylon War 1, the older models rebelled. The new centurions (no reference to the Joseph Wambaugh book of same name!) are built slightly "dumber" to perhaps quell any notions of rebellion against their new masters (the aforementioned skin-jobs). That's my take on the whole thing. Right or wrong? We'll see.....

[maneth]

I'm not sure the new centurions are dumber than the old ones, although that depends on your definition of stupidity I guess. The main difference is that unlike skinjobs, the toasters lack self-awareness, and thus are a lot less likely to rebel. I would also bet that they're heavily programmed against the possibility of such rebellion.

The vipers are apparently much like dogs on Earth. To an extent self-aware and self-motivated, able to download like the skinjobs, they nevertheless don't think independently except when required by battle. My theory is that between battles the vipers are effectively boxed aboard the basestars to conserve resources, since they use nutrients, and incidentally oxygen (or else Starbuck would've been in trouble), unlike the skinjobs who can apparently do without, at least for short periods of time, as shown by the Sharons when they showed themselves to Boomer.

Although the skinjobs have the ability to download, there's a limit on how many times they can do that. Apparently the process isn't completely painless, and the more often you do it, the worse it gets. Number Three was apparently driven mad by the visions she saw between download and resurrection, and was boxed as a result.

[Captain Taurus]

They do eat, remember Baltar got Gina to eat in the Pegasus brig and ive seen Tyrol eating in the mess.

Yes, now that you mentioned it I do recall that scene, but does (Gina) Six, or the others, require nourishment to sustain themselves? You know I missed like 20 minutes of the last episode and I did not know that Tyrol is also a Cylon?! God, I blink and everyone is a toaster! Is there anyone else that I missed? Okay, recap. Tigh, Tyrol and Starbucks former husband (his name is escaping me right now) are all Cylons! Including Roslyns aide! Did I miss anyone?!

It looks like the five age, and while it's possible they download, it may be equally possible that there's only one "alive" at a time.

That's an interesting insight and makes them more mortal than machine. But still have machine like qualities. As I mentioned they deemed Data to be alive, but at the end of the trial he is still identified as an Android. So how elaborate can an android be before it is considered human? Or no longer a machine?

the replicants were engineered, biologically-mimetic beings, down to a cellular level (under electron microscope, you could see their serial/manufacturing #s etched onto their cells). I suspect BSG's skin-jobs (a term coined from Blade Runner, in fact) are much the same.

Toaster, you never disappoint me! Blade Runner was frakking awesome especially the new re-release with the directors cut! Cells with laser printed serial numbers and barcodes. Sounds like a machine to me. But again, they are alive on a level that goes beyond your TV and Computer. It is almost like the question in Matrix, what is real? Way to philosophical to elaborate at this juncture! But relevant to my argument, Helo and Sharon have procreated and created a living baby! I've got a really advanced computer but my computer isn't about to procreate anything for me. I can't even get it to turn on properly! So lets explore this issue about the baby! The 13th Cylon! Is she totally human or is she part machine? Are the Cylons so over-engineered that they can continue to self-replicate by passing on living programs and living machine organisms to each new generations. It is like having a living manufacturing plant inside your body. Imagine the programs are alive and so sophisticated that they can be passed onto a human host and lay dormant like a virus and become active when needed. Starts implementing programs, making internal adjustments inside, building steel parts within the host. Spooky!

The main difference is that unlike skinjobs, the toasters lack self-awareness, and thus are a lot less likely to rebel. I would also bet that they're heavily programmed against the possibility of such rebellion.

There are Cylons that are more machines than human, such as the raiders and the new Centurians. Like you said, they are programmed to be dumber and are not self-aware. Or if they are self-aware they certainly aren't letting on to that fact. And the downloads install the old memories from the previous model and therefore there bodies are not truly alive until these downloads are completed. But they do reproduce! So there are elements about them that constitute that they are living, at the least with the skinjobs, but they are Cyborgs, but what about their off-spring? Fully human or do they pass on elaborate living programs and nanotech onto their offspring! Wow this is a whole new topic!

[obsolete toaster]

I'm not sure the new centurions are dumber than the old ones, although that depends on your definition of stupidity I guess. The main difference is that unlike skinjobs, the toasters lack self-awareness, and thus are a lot less likely to rebel. I would also bet that they're heavily programmed against the possibility of such rebellion.

The vipers are apparently much like dogs on Earth. To an extent self-aware and self-motivated, able to download like the skinjobs, they nevertheless don't think independently except when required by battle. My theory is that between battles the vipers are effectively boxed aboard the basestars to conserve resources, since they use nutrients, and incidentally oxygen (or else Starbuck would've been in trouble), unlike the skinjobs who can apparently do without, at least for short periods of time, as shown by the Sharons when they showed themselves to Boomer.

Although the skinjobs have the ability to download, there's a limit on how many times they can do that. Apparently the process isn't completely painless, and the more often you do it, the worse it gets. Number Three was apparently driven mad by the visions she saw between download and resurrection, and was boxed as a result.

Er...you meant "raiders" aboard base-stars, eh? Because if there are vipers aboard base-stars, I've missed a good episode! Ha, ha. Just kidding, Maneth! And as for the "dumber" skin-jobs, what I meant was that in "Razor" it seemed the old-school guardian toasters showed more initiative (to protect the old hybrid) than the newer centurions would've. My guess is that since the old toasters were the original "rebels," (in Cylon War 1) the new models probably had rebellious thoughts purged from their program, so they would not turn on their skin-job masters. That's more of what I meant by "dumb." More subservient. Less independent.

[maneth]

D'oh. Raiders of course. I wrote that too early in the morning or too late at night!

[Captain Taurus]

Er...you meant "raiders" aboard base-stars, eh?

Thank you for getting that cleared up. I thought I was totally frakked when I read that and was wondering what the hell are you talking about. Now I really feel like I don't know what I am talking about! Okay, so Maneth meant raiders not vipers!

D'oh. Raiders of course. I wrote that too early in the morning or too late at night!

It happens to the best of us! I don't know how many times I have had to go back in here to make corrections! That's why the edit button is our friend!

[maneth]

Indeed. Although there's no point in changing a previous post when you've been called up on it.

[Captain Taurus]

No worries!

[ensign edwards]

Are they human or just machines? Well, that's the big question isn't it?

I don't really know the answer, but here's my theory:

I wouldn't call them cyborgs, because I don't think they've got nanites or any metal or "machine parts, but they do seem to be a hybrid between machine and human. I think they were grown from human genetic material, which was modified to function similarly to a computer.

I'd say they would best be described as an artificially created human sub-species. Homo technius maybe?

[Captain Taurus]

I wouldn't call them cyborgs, because I don't think they've got nanites or any metal or "machine parts, but they do seem to be a hybrid between machine and human. I think they were grown from human genetic material, which was modified to function similarly to a computer.

I think there is a blend of both going on. I can't see where they would find brains big enough to put into those Raiders unless, like you said, that they were grown and modified to handle computer technology. But like I've said, they can't be skin and bone because their spines wouldn't glow in the dark and everyone keeps avoiding that little fact. Acknowledge.

I'd say they would best be described as an artificially created human sub-species. Homo technius maybe?

I would agree that they are not entirely human. But almost by definition they are Cyborbs. Part Human and part machine. Even the skinjobs must have more than just skin and bones otherwise they wouldn't be able to download nor would they be able to do the extraordinary things that they do like survive on Caprica without needing to take Radiation meds.

[Captain Taurus]

Humanoid Cylons

Although they made only a brief appearance in one episode of the spin-off from the original series, humanoid Cylons play a major part in the reimagining. The term 'humanoid Cylon' is a description, rather than an official designation.

Ronald D. Moore has confirmed in interviews that there are twelve different models of humanoid Cylon, with many copies of each model in existence. The Cylons have nonverbal ways of sharing information but do not have a hive mind and are most often shown talking to one another. Even identical Cylons are separate individuals. Moore has also stated that the humanoid Cylons are not based on pre-existing humans: "The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said 'You know what? There's really only twelve of you.' If these are the twelve, and sort of if you look at them they each represent different archetypes of what humanity is."

Cylon society is made up of the seven known, mass-produced humanoid models. For a yet unrevealed reason, the final five Cylons are completely unknown to both the humans and the Cylons, and Cylons are forbidden from trying to discover their identities. When D'Anna (Three) attempts to do this, her entire model is boxed -- indefinitely deactivated with their memories permanently downloaded into cold storage -- as punishment by the other six models. In the final episode of the third season, four of the final five are revealed to be "human" characters with long histories on the Galactica. Their purpose, and how and why they were hidden from the rest of their kind, will likely be a major plot point of the fourth and final season.

The humanoid Cylons appear to be responsible for command decisions. While the command structure has not been fully explored, some hints at organization have been revealed. At the end of the miniseries, a group of cylons are debating what to do, and one speaks authoritatively, to which another responds, "by your command", a reference to the original series.

In the episode "Precipice", a Cylon council (made up of multiple copies of several models) appears to cast votes collectively by model, indicating that model plays an important role in the hierarchy of Cylon society and that they always make decisions in this fashion, as Cylons of the same model are implied to have higher or lower ranks than Cylons of other models at various times.

Although little is known about Cylon psychology, it is clear that they share many of the same emotional vulnerabilities that humans possess. This is evidenced by Gina's catatonic state as a result of the severe trauma of her abuse at the hands of the Pegasus crew. This abuse, undoubtedly, was presented in the form of multiple sexual assaults, battery, starvation and outright torture. Number Six / Caprica Six also revealed that Cylons exist by 'projecting' an environment of their choice on the real/physical world.

http://en.wikipedia....)#Earlier_Model

The spines of human form Cylons glow red during sex. They are also capable of physically interfacing with computer systems through a subdermal connection. ("Flight of the Phoenix")

Centurions

In the 1978 Battlestar Galactica series, the Centurion Model 0005 represented most Cylons; though other models existed; none were truly humanoid. Model 005, like their more modern brethren, were made entirely of shiny chrome metal with a single red eye, earning them the nickname "toasters". While the newer models have a much more sleek appearance, they are used by the Cylons in much the same way the humans used them. They are laborers and soldiers designed without sentience to prevent the possibility of rebellion. These models are subservient to the human models which appear to be the ones in charge.
[edit]
Raiders

see main article: Raider (BSG 2003)

Cylon Raiders are autonomous biomechanical spacecraft. In the miniseries, the colonial fleet's first contact with a Cylon Raider led Viper pilots to realize the raiders were unmanned and bore more than a passing resemblance to their Centurion brethren. Unfortunately, the viper pilots were shortly wiped out after the realization. In the episode "You Can't Go Home Again" it was discovered by Starbuck, for the first time, that the high speed air/space craft was unmanned and was essentially a living being, independent of the Cylon Base Star. Other Cylon spacecraft also have biomechanical make up including the Base Stars which are managed by humanoid biomechanical computers known as hybrids.


http://scifipedia.sc...ndex.php/Cylons

[maneth]

I can understand humans and skinjobs being able to have, and enjoy, sex even if they're cyborgs. What I don't get is that they can breed. If they couldn't produce children together all bets would be off, but as they can...

Besides, we haven't seen spines glow since season 2. I wonder if that's a trick RDM regrets introducing... To me, if the cyborg part is something like nanoviruses, it might work. It's been estimated that every healthy adult carries about 2 kilos (4+ lbs) of bacteria, so they're pervasive. Nanoviruses would have the advantage that they're practically impossible to detect without an electron microscope. I don't think they have such equipment on the Galactica or on any civilian ships in the fleet.

[Captain Taurus]

I can understand humans and skinjobs being able to have, and enjoy, sex even if they're cyborgs. What I don't get is that they can breed. If they couldn't produce children together all bets would be off, but as they can...

Besides, we haven't seen spines glow since season 2. I wonder if that's a trick RDM regrets introducing... To me, if the cyborg part is something like nanoviruses, it might work. It's been estimated that every healthy adult carries about 2 kilos (4+ lbs) of bacteria, so they're pervasive. Nanoviruses would have the advantage that they're practically impossible to detect without an electron microscope. I don't think they have such equipment on the Galactica or on any civilian ships in the fleet.

I certainly agree with everything that you have said. I personally liked the spines glowing in the dark, it was kind of weird but interesting quirk being a Cylon skinjob. And then I was wondering if they were going to have any other tell-tale signs that would allow someone to visually identify one of them as a skinjob. Like having their eyes glow red when they get mad. Something like that would have been perfect. Because as it stands they are way to difficult to identify. Also it seems that while they have the ability to breed they have not been successful amongst themselves. Also, Sharon is the only one so far to have done so successfully. They think that love is the key to procreating successfully. I think it is an engineering flaw in their design. Machine cannot replace God, or his great gift of life. So that is why they are starting to contemplate saving a few humans to procreate with them.


They may have the equipment just not the manpower to follow such a procedure through.

I was on a website last night that indicated that the original cylons from the original series rebelled against the living Cylon lizards because their programming saw them as flawed as the races they were asked to attack. So they turned on their own masters and spared a handful of them to assist them in their conquest of the universe. So I am thinking this is our answer as to why the first generation cylons rebelled against the humans. They saw that all humans were a threat and not just the select groups that they were ask to attack.

[maneth]

Your last paragraph sounds very reasonable. I wonder if the Caprica series ever gets off the ground and if it will give us any answers...

[Captain Taurus]

Your last paragraph sounds very reasonable. I wonder if the Caprica series ever gets off the ground and if it will give us any answers...

Thanks Maneth! Apparently, the series is going ahead, slowly, but going ahead according to our favorite toaster, Obsolete. And I am hoping that not only will it give us interesting answers, but be totally entertaining as well. Take care.

[ensign edwards]

I think there is a blend of both going on. I can't see where they would find brains big enough to put into those Raiders unless, like you said, that they were grown and modified to handle computer technology. But like I've said, they can't be skin and bone because their spines wouldn't glow in the dark and everyone keeps avoiding that little fact. Acknowledge.

They could be without machine parts and still have their spines glow. Many real life organisms have what is known as bio-luminescence, fireflys for instance.